Author Topic: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris  (Read 184181 times)

Offline LondonRapLondon

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2080 on: February 16, 2015, 08:21:32 pm »
under educated and religious zealots....  Certainly the second, but it seems not always the first.

There seem to be a really quite restrictive Islamic education that many kids are force fed here in the UK....

The trouble is, there's little more dangerous than a religious zealot(s) with a gun(s)

Just look at George Bush eh?

And what about the non-religious people like Stalin etc.

As for your comment on the Islamic education kids in Britain are receiving what do you base this on? You know any Islamic studies teachers or do you observe these classes regularly? Have you checked the curriculum at a Islamic school near you? Or  have you read some studies by experts on Islamic schools in Britain?

A friend of mine did a PGCE placement in an Islamic school in East London, they were being taught from the same curriculum as all other state schools...

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2081 on: February 16, 2015, 08:27:37 pm »
Just look at George Bush eh?

And what about the non-religious people like Stalin etc.

As for your comment on the Islamic education kids in Britain are receiving what do you base this on? You know any Islamic studies teachers or do you observe these classes regularly? Have you checked the curriculum at a Islamic school near you? Or  have you read some studies by experts on Islamic schools in Britain?

A friend of mine did a PGCE placement in an Islamic school in East London, they were being taught from the same curriculum as all other state schools...
I know many students who have studied at Islamic schools after their school studies... Some of their tales were very concerning (their words)

I agree bush was a zealot, but there are far worse zealots in the US, which is scary.

Check out @Ali_Jones89 for some specific examples of Islamic schooling (at its worst).
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 08:31:25 pm by Tepid water »
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2082 on: February 16, 2015, 08:30:31 pm »
As for your comment on the Islamic education kids in Britain are receiving what do you base this on? You know any Islamic studies teachers or do you observe these classes regularly? Have you checked the curriculum at a Islamic school near you? Or  have you read some studies by experts on Islamic schools in Britain?

A friend of mine did a PGCE placement in an Islamic school in East London, they were being taught from the same curriculum as all other state schools...
Ofsted don't agree with you or your friend.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2083 on: February 16, 2015, 09:02:22 pm »
I know many students who have studied at Islamic schools after their school studies... Some of their tales were very concerning (their words)

I agree bush was a zealot, but there are far worse zealots in the US, which is scary.

Check out @Ali_Jones89 for some specific examples of Islamic schooling (at its worst).

Yeh, I think Palin is a scary woman, even more scary if she has the controls to American military

Oh, I see, so you're not talking about regular state Muslim schools. You're talking about the classes after school. Well, why not go and visit your local mosque to find out what they are teaching there...because you clearly don't know.

I checked that twitter handle, come on dawg, I got to a page where it says that person is an Atheist. And shes criticising her boarding school she went to about Music, not what you mention, the after school classes.

So really, you have nothing to support your claim about the education Muslim kids are getting. When you make such unsupported claims it can just add to the misconceptions and distrust out there.

Like I say, my friend did their PGCE (teacher training placement) in a Muslim school. Exactly the same curriculum was being worked from...compared to the other secular school the second placement was done.

Once there as a guy in our area, an old guy, who came into our African Activism Group because he saw our weekly meetings and was curious. He had 'heard that we were planning to attack white people'...he came and sat with us...and enjoyed the knowledge of history that was being dropped and the discussions we were having about African hair and the media.

So really, the best way to destroy malicious rumours is by going and sitting with the people the rumours are about


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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2084 on: February 16, 2015, 09:07:35 pm »
I have been to a mosque .....

It was very interesting....

Sadly, shortly afterwards one member of the mosque (and associates) was arrested for trying to blow up a plane ......

Ok, that didn't go so well! I know many mosques are very welcoming places.  However, I have worked with a huge number of Muslims and I know that what they have been taught in their after school lessons is somewhat disturbing. 
I'm not trying to saying they are preaching terrorism (never heard that), just closed mindedness, an unquestioning approach to their faith, intolerance and bigotry...

Anyway, I'm not trying to have a go at the religious here, just religious zealots....

These are people who are so certain of their own interpretation of gods word that they cannot possible be truely religious.  How could anyone claim to gods mind so certianly?  It's an impossibility.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 09:14:52 pm by Tepid water »
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Offline LondonRapLondon

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2085 on: February 16, 2015, 09:13:49 pm »
I have been to a mosque .....

It was very interesting....

Sadly, shortly afterwards one member of the mosque (and associates) was arrested for trying to blow up a plane ......

Ok, that didn't go so well! I know many mosques are very welcoming places.  However, I have worked with a huge number of Muslims and I know that what they have been taught in their after school lessons is somewhat disturbing. 
I'm not trying to saying they are preaching terrorism (never heard that), just closed mindedness, an unquestioning approach to their faith, intolerance and bigotry...

Just out of interest, what mosque is this?

And as for 'colsed mindedness, unquestioning approach to faith, intolerance and bigotry...that's a matter of perspective.

I don't know if you have a faith, but in reality most, if not all faiths, to somebody who is a secularist, are described with the same terms.

Every established faith has the presupposition that it is true hence why it is withing a paradigm of it being the absolute truth.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2086 on: February 16, 2015, 09:15:35 pm »
So really, you have nothing to support your claim about the education Muslim kids are getting. When you make such unsupported claims it can just add to the misconceptions and distrust out there.

Like I say, my friend did their PGCE (teacher training placement) in a Muslim school. Exactly the same curriculum was being worked from...compared to the other secular school the second placement was done.
You trust in the anecdotes of your numerous friends might be misplaced.

'Radicalisation risk' at six Muslim private schools, says Ofsted
Pupils at six small Muslim private schools in east London are at risk of extremist views and radicalisation, says Ofsted's chief inspector.

You can read the rest here : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-30129645

So who to trust here? Your friend the trainee teacher or Ofsted's chief inspector?

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2087 on: February 16, 2015, 09:20:31 pm »
Just out of interest, what mosque is this?

And as for 'colsed mindedness, unquestioning approach to faith, intolerance and bigotry...that's a matter of perspective.

I don't know if you have a faith, but in reality most, if not all faiths, to somebody who is a secularist, are described with the same terms.

Every established faith has the presupposition that it is true hence why it is withing a paradigm of it being the absolute truth.
I can't remember the name of the mosque, but I can drive you there ;D (Over towards brixton) probably not much use that!

I will stick by the close minded part though, in my experience this is particularly so for people from the Pakistani community and much less often the case for people from other Islamic groups....  So, obviously they are issues with different cultures too.

As I edited in my post above, my beef was really about religious zealots not at all the religious.

Religious zealots claim to know gods mind with utter certainty. They have no doubt they are wrong.  I can't imagine how one could know gods mind in that detail (you couldn't, it's impossible) and its that misplaced certainty which is dangerous.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2088 on: February 16, 2015, 09:25:02 pm »
It's the wording of Will Self, it's a transcript of part of what he said.

As for the word 'demands', stop being flippant, making a demand does not necessarily come with a punitive action if that demand is not responded to.

You're always hiding behind "important academics" or "Wilf Self" et al. You quote them approvingly so, of course, I imagine you sort of agree with them.

As for 'demands' that come without any sanction, well, really, they're not demands at all are they - or at least they are toothless ones. Certainly they are hardly comparable with the demands made by the likes of Islamic State. Those tend to come with slaughter and bloodshed.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2089 on: February 16, 2015, 09:29:41 pm »
I can't remember the name of the mosque, but I can drive you there ;D probably not much use that!

I will stick by the close minded part though, in my experience this is particularly so for people from the Pakistani community and much less often the case for people from other Islamic groups....  So, obviously they are issues with different cultures too.

As I edited in my post above, my beef was really about religious zealots not at all the religious.

Religious zealots claim to know gods mind with utter certainty. They have no doubt they are wrong.  I can't imagine how one could know gods mind in that detail (you couldn't, it's impossible) and its that misplaced certainty which is dangerous.

OK, seems like you have an issue with Pakistani people rather than Muslims on the whole.

However, I think it's a dangerous comment (and possibly) could be conceived as racist.

That's up to you how you want to think, but I've always been raised to respect all nationalities and cultures...never to generalize a negative experience onto the who community or race. That's what my teachers always taught me.

However what town is this mosque, because, I want to verify your claim...a Brit trying to blow a plane up from a mosque you visited...surprised you don't know the name of that mosque.

Recently a  female journalist from Channel 4 had egg on her face on twitter because she claimed to have visited a mosque and was 'ushered out'..the mosque had CCTV and no such ushering happened. She's been utterly discredited as a journalist and she was trying to even get a discussion going about it - a negative one:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/02/05/cathy-newman-mosque_n_6620026.html
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 09:33:43 pm by LondonRapLondon »

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2090 on: February 16, 2015, 09:34:21 pm »
OK, seems like you have an issue with Pakistani people.
Seems to me like you have the biggest chip on your shoulder on this site mate :wave Throw-away remarks like that? They. Do. Not. Help.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2091 on: February 16, 2015, 09:41:19 pm »
OK, seems like you have an issue with Pakistani people rather than Muslims on the whole.

However, I think it's a dangerous comment (and possibly) could be conceived as racist.

That's up to you how you want to think, but I've always been raised to respect all nationalities and cultures...never to generalize a negative experience onto the who community or race. That's what my teachers always taught me.

However what town is this mosque, because, I want to verify your claim...a Brit trying to blow a plane up from a mosque you visited...surprised you don't know the name of that mosque.

Recently a  female journalist from Channel 4 had egg on her face on twitter because she claimed to have visited a mosque and was 'ushered out'..the mosque had CCTV and no such ushering happened. She's been utterly discredited as a journalist and she was trying to even get a discussion going about it - a negative one:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/02/05/cathy-newman-mosque_n_6620026.html
I'm not sure which town Brixton is in, I forget.... Which town IS Brixton in?????

I genuinely can't remember the name of the mosque, sorry.  It was over ten years ago.

I love the Pakistani community, I've worked with hundreds/ perhaps thousands of them.  Many delightful people, kind, good heated and charitable.  However, the Islamic education they receive is all too often as I mentioned above.  This is not as often the case for other muslims groups I know.

Please don't try and insinuate that I'm racist against the Pakistani community, that is far far from the case.  You seem to be a good person with good intentions, you really are better than that.
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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline LondonRapLondon

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2092 on: February 16, 2015, 09:43:37 pm »
You're always hiding behind "important academics" or "Wilf Self" et al. You quote them approvingly so, of course, I imagine you sort of agree with them.

As for 'demands' that come without any sanction, well, really, they're not demands at all are they - or at least they are toothless ones. Certainly they are hardly comparable with the demands made by the likes of Islamic State. Those tend to come with slaughter and bloodshed.

That's not the discussion though. Did you listen to Will Self?

One of the reasons he's relevant is because he is a famous satirist. And, another thing here, which is more to the point, he outlines the purpose of satire. The purpose being to comfort the afflicted rather than offend and hurt them. Thus, the satire which we are talking about fails it's purpose. And the use of satire is always to convey another point, but satire that comes from France is of a militant secular nature and to impose those values through satire on other nations is a form imperialism.

You can be superficial or you can be more researched and thoughtful...to be the latter one should consult authorities such as academics. My wife is a doctoral student and in order to get an understanding of any sub-topic papers from experts must be read. So it makes sense for us to have a better than superficial and incorrect understanding on a topic...research needs to be done...research is generally produced by academics

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2093 on: February 16, 2015, 09:51:45 pm »
That's not the discussion though. Did you listen to Will Self?

Yes I did. He was speaking rubbish.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2094 on: February 16, 2015, 09:56:54 pm »
I'm not sure which town Brixton is in, I forget.... Which town IS Brixton in?????

I genuinely can't remember the name of the mosque, sorry.  It was over ten years ago.

I love the Pakistani community, I've worked with hundreds/ perhaps thousands of them.  Many delightful people, kind, good heated and charitable.  However, the Islamic education they receive is all too often as I mentioned above.  This is not as often the case for other muslims groups I know.

Please don't try and insinuate that I'm racist against the Pakistani community, that is far far from the case.  You seem to be a good person with good intentions, you really are better than that.

Thanks for the kind comment.

And yeh, I would just advise to be careful as I had an issue in this thread here where mentioning the color of a group was taken out of context:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=319924.0

So I guess, there are people who can misconstrue things.

And yeah, Brixton...in a very very big town :) A lot of gentrification has gone on in Brixton so the makeup is a lot different in that area ten years ago.

You say, the Pakistani people are kind, charitable and loving...have you stopped to think these are from religious instructions they have received in these classes you are concerned about.

At the end of the day, dialogue with others helps to a better understanding so it's good you have a lot of mates in that community. Ask them about it. Or perhaps there's somebody from that community on here to discuss it with

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2095 on: February 16, 2015, 10:00:14 pm »
Seems to me like you have the biggest chip on your shoulder on this site mate :wave Throw-away remarks like that? They. Do. Not. Help.

QUOTE the whole sentence otherwise you lose the context.

We were discussing the education of Muslim kids in the UK. And through his comment it became apparent his 'issue' (i.e. concern with the education) was with the Pakistani community.



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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2096 on: February 16, 2015, 10:03:01 pm »
Thanks for the kind comment.

And yeh, I would just advise to be careful as I had an issue in this thread here where mentioning the color of a group was taken out of context:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=319924.0

So I guess, there are people who can misconstrue things.

And yeah, Brixton...in a very very big town :) A lot of gentrification has gone on in Brixton so the makeup is a lot different in that area ten years ago.

You say, the Pakistani people are kind, charitable and loving...have you stopped to think these are from religious instructions they have received in these classes you are concerned about.

At the end of the day, dialogue with others helps to a better understanding so it's good you have a lot of mates in that community. Ask them about it. Or perhaps there's somebody from that community on here to discuss it with
I've always been of the opinion that kindness, charity and a loving nature come irrespective of ones backgrounds, colour skin, creed.

There's good and bad in all of us.

The complaints about their religious education have mostly come form members of the Pakistani community though.... Although I suppose one might say that those prepared to complain about it are the ones it had least effect on.  I would argue that they were the ones who thought most about what they were being asked to learn things without question....

Anyway. I think we have veered off topic.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2097 on: February 16, 2015, 10:08:40 pm »
Yes I did. He was speaking rubbish.

err OK

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2098 on: February 16, 2015, 10:10:49 pm »
I've always been of the opinion that kindness, charity and a loving nature come irrespective of ones backgrounds, colour skin, creed.

There's good and bad in all of us.

The complaints about their religious education have mostly come form members of the Pakistani community though.... Although I suppose one might say that those prepared to complain about it are the ones it had least effect on.  I would argue that they were the ones who thought most about what they were being asked to learn things without question....

Anyway. I think we have veered off topic.

Well take care, have a good night and thanks for taking the time to discuss.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2099 on: February 16, 2015, 11:37:52 pm »
You trust in the anecdotes of your numerous friends might be misplaced.

'Radicalisation risk' at six Muslim private schools, says Ofsted
Pupils at six small Muslim private schools in east London are at risk of extremist views and radicalisation, says Ofsted's chief inspector.

You can read the rest here : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-30129645

So who to trust here? Your friend the trainee teacher or Ofsted's chief inspector?

The criticism was not about the teaching curriculum so nothing here contradicts what my friend experienced.

On top of this, Ofsted's buzz inspection was based on vague questions involving new pupils too. Not the best way to find out about a school.

One of the school's responses.

But the school said that during a two-day inspection in October, Ofsted asked pupils "vaguely worded questions which produced vague responses".

"To make sweeping generalisations on the basis of their response is utterly unprofessional," it said in a statement.

"As some of these students had just begun their schooling, it is preposterous to suggest their views somehow reflect the school's curriculum."

Suggestions that children were not protected from extremist views were "completely unfounded", it said, adding that Ofsted's findings regarding the role of women did not "reflect the school's attitude".

The school said it was "natural" for an Islamic school to have a "primary ethos" based on Islam, but that did not mean it taught children that other faiths and traditions were "antithetical to Islamic teachings".

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2100 on: February 16, 2015, 11:42:31 pm »
QUOTE the whole sentence otherwise you lose the context.
THANK YOU for the capital letters. I've been around long enough to know what point I wish to be making and I know a thing or three about context, your patronising haughtines notwithstanding. You opened up your post with the remark that I categorised as throw-away. The context in which I posted remains valid. Feel free to continue your diatribes and postulations unhindered from me. Plenty of other eyes watch you.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 11:44:35 pm by 24/7 »
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2101 on: February 17, 2015, 12:02:43 am »
The purpose [of satire is] to comfort the afflicted rather than offend and hurt them.

Well I'll be damned, I need to buy a new dictionary and find out how many other words I've been misinterpreting all these years.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2102 on: February 17, 2015, 07:19:21 am »
The criticism was not about the teaching curriculum so nothing here contradicts what my friend experienced.
Read the whole article.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2103 on: February 17, 2015, 09:21:21 am »
The purpose (of satire) being to comfort the afflicted rather than offend and hurt them.

Which is why this wasn't satire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2104 on: February 17, 2015, 10:00:00 am »
And the use of satire is always to convey another point, but satire that comes from France is of a militant secular nature and to impose those values through satire on other nations is a form imperialism.
What on earth are you talking about? What is "militant secularism"?

You appear to see imperialism, bigotry and racism in places it doesn't exist? Is it because you have a shaky understanding of the terms?

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2105 on: February 17, 2015, 10:42:53 am »
The criticism was not about the teaching curriculum ...

But it was, amongst other things.

Mazahirul Uloom ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2434213/urn/133307.pdf
Page 1 ... Main Findings ... The school’s curriculum is too narrow. ... followed by list.


Jamiatul Ummah ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2451244/urn/131388.pdf
Page 6 ... The quality of teaching is inadequate.... followed by list


Ebrahim Academy ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2451302/urn/136129.pdf
Page 7 The quality of teaching is inadequate.... followed by list


London East Academy ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2451246/urn/134810.pdf
Page 6 ... The quality of teaching is inadequate.... followed by list


Al-Mizan School ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2434617/urn/133646.pdf
Page 6 ... The quality of teaching is inadequate.... followed by list


East London Islamic School ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2434209/urn/139216.pdf
Page 1 ... The quality of education provided at the school is inadequate.... followed by list

They are well worth reading in full.

Having been personally a Chair of Governors through two Ofsted inspections, and having several family members who are in the teaching profession, all I will say is it's quite clear from reading those reports that while teaching the children to recite the Koran in Arabic may well be covered adequately, most other things including, with just a few exception studies, the general depth and quality of the teaching of the NC at any of those schools appears to be falling short of the required standards.

Equally alarming is the common thread of the seeming lack of good Governance, as well as the lack of adequate pre-checks on new staff, something that is flagged in at least two of the reports.

One of the school's responses.....

That's entirely to be expected, criticism is rarely welcomed by those who fervently believe they have an absolute and righteous conviction that what they are doing is correct (a trait noticeable not just in education but also within many strands of society and politics, humility and contriteness seemingly being a bit of a forgotten skill these days).

As for the expressed disquiet at the questioning of new pupils by the Inspectors, this questioning of pupils is done at all schools.

Why is it that schools that have good Ofsted reports don't seem to complain about it?

You see, if as you seem to be you are agreeing with what that school proffered in its defence, you could be construed as implying that these particular schools should be excepted from such things, or perhaps do you think that the school itself should be responsible for setting the remit and criteria of the Inspection process? I'm unconvinced that would work well.

Out of interest, you seem to come over in your posts as being quite religious. Do you practice a religion and which one?

And lest you think that's impertinent, I'll freely declare that I'm an atheist (or since to my knowledge I've not been excommunicated, yet, a Lapsed Catholic as the Catholic Church would rather call me).
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2106 on: February 17, 2015, 12:10:59 pm »
But it was, amongst other things.

Mazahirul Uloom ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2434213/urn/133307.pdf
Page 1 ... Main Findings ... The school’s curriculum is too narrow. ... followed by list.


Jamiatul Ummah ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2451244/urn/131388.pdf
Page 6 ... The quality of teaching is inadequate.... followed by list


Ebrahim Academy ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2451302/urn/136129.pdf
Page 7 The quality of teaching is inadequate.... followed by list


London East Academy ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2451246/urn/134810.pdf
Page 6 ... The quality of teaching is inadequate.... followed by list


Al-Mizan School ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2434617/urn/133646.pdf
Page 6 ... The quality of teaching is inadequate.... followed by list


East London Islamic School ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2434209/urn/139216.pdf
Page 1 ... The quality of education provided at the school is inadequate.... followed by list

They are well worth reading in full.

Having been personally a Chair of Governors through two Ofsted inspections, and having several family members who are in the teaching profession, all I will say is it's quite clear from reading those reports that while teaching the children to recite the Koran in Arabic may well be covered adequately, most other things including, with just a few exception studies, the general depth and quality of the teaching of the NC at any of those schools appears to be falling short of the required standards.

Equally alarming is the common thread of the seeming lack of good Governance, as well as the lack of adequate pre-checks on new staff, something that is flagged in at least two of the reports.

That's entirely to be expected, criticism is rarely welcomed by those who fervently believe they have an absolute and righteous conviction that what they are doing is correct (a trait noticeable not just in education but also within many strands of society and politics, humility and contriteness seemingly being a bit of a forgotten skill these days).



That's all very well, but LRL knws someone who said something different.
So there you have it.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2107 on: February 17, 2015, 02:10:21 pm »
Five of my local secondary schools also failed Ofsted reports for similar reasons, special measures were put in place and some of them failed again :(
None of these are "faith" schools.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2108 on: February 17, 2015, 02:11:47 pm »
THANK YOU for the capital letters. I've been around long enough to know what point I wish to be making and I know a thing or three about context, your patronising haughtines notwithstanding. You opened up your post with the remark that I categorised as throw-away. The context in which I posted remains valid. Feel free to continue your diatribes and postulations unhindered from me. Plenty of other eyes watch you.

Firstly sorry about the caps.

You seem sincere, and that's fair enough. The problem here is there are a couple of people who follow others around and just take swipes at...hence my rudeness towards you. I just thought you were amongst that clique.

Sorry.

Respect.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2109 on: February 17, 2015, 02:19:05 pm »
Five of my local secondary schools also failed Ofsted reports for similar reasons, special measures were put in place and some of them failed again :(
None of these are "faith" schools.

Good point.

Jewish faith schools excel in the league tables:

"Jewish secondary schools are all very high performing. They regularly appear in the top of the UK league tables. This is one of the reasons they are so popular with parents. They offer the highest academic standards, combined with an enriched Jewish education and social life, and are very ambitious for their students."

http://www.findajewishschool.co.uk/jewish-secondary-schools/faq.php

And there's good figures concerning Muslim faith schools:

Muslim state schools are among the most successful in the country in terms of both value-added scores and raw exam results, The TES can reveal.

"Pupils make more progress at Muslim secondary schools than in any other type of school, including faith schools and non-religious comprehensives, figures from Whitehall show."

https://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6006501

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2110 on: February 17, 2015, 02:20:39 pm »
This is a terrific report from France by Mark Lilla, writing in New York Review of Books http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/mar/05/france-on-fire/

In it he talks of the intellectual and institutional omerta that has prevented liberals from addressing the problems that radical Islam has presented French society over the last few years. Here's an extract:


"The evidence has been there for anyone who cared to look for it, in books like those of Kepel and the growing literature of memoirs written by former teachers in the quartiers who gave up because they could not control their classes or enforce the principle of laicity. In 2004, for example, the Chirac government received a report it had commissioned on the presence of religious “signs and belonging” in the schools, which was promptly buried because its results were so disturbing. This Obin Report was based on on-site visits government inspectors made to over sixty middle and high schools across France, concentrating on disfavored quartiers.

The extent to which life in many of them had been, to employ Kepel’s term, “halalized” shocked them. The report recounts stories of girls being under constant surveillance by self-appointed older brothers who mete out corporal punishment with fists and belts if they deem modesty to have been violated. Wearing skirts or dresses is impossible in many places, also for female teachers. There is an obsession with purity, as students and their parents demand separate swimming hours or refuse to let their children go on school trips where the sexes might mix. If they do go, some refuse to enter cathedrals or churches.

There are fathers who won’t shake hands with female teachers, or let their wives speak alone to male teachers. There are cases of children refusing to sing, or dance, or learn an instrument, or draw a face, or use a mathematical symbol that resembles a cross. The question of dress and social mixing has led to the abandonment of gym classes in many places. Children also feel emboldened to refuse to read authors or books that they find religiously unacceptable: Rousseau, Molière, Madame Bovary. Certain subjects are taboo: evolution, sex ed, the Shoah. As one father told a teacher, “I forbid you to mention Jesus to my son.”

In general the report conveys a sense of enormous religious pressure in certain places. During Ramadan, the more “pious” students harass less observant Muslims, and scared kids have been found eating food on the sly in the bathrooms. One child attempted suicide due to the harassment.

The situation of Jewish students is far worse and a great number have transferred to private schools (though also because they, too, have become more observant). In 1996 a principal in Lyons had to arrange the departure of the last two Jewish students in his school because he could not assure their safety. As the report says, “there is a stupefying and cruel reality: in France, Jewish children, and Jewish children alone, cannot be educated in all of our schools.”

There is little way of knowing how widespread these phenomena are, though since the massacres teachers in the quartiers have gone to the press to unburden themselves. And the instinctive response of many journalists and scholars every time stories like these are told—that they are totally unrepresentative, that even if true they are stigmatizing and play into the hands of the National Front—simply isn’t adequate. The deeper question the Obin Report raised was whether the French educational establishment had a coherent response to offer when these incidents do occur. The inspectors note in the report that administrators minimized the problems teachers reported and gave little support, though they themselves had little guidance from above. This is what Najat Vallaud-Belkacem meant when she criticized the tendency not to “make waves.” After Chirac received the Obin Report it took a year of nagging for his government education minister to release it, to little effect. Since the massacres, however, it is being widely discussed.

If anything plays into the hands of the National Front, it is this resistance to reality. The famous bon mot of Charles Péguy, a hero of French republicanism, applies: “One must always say what one sees. But especially—and this is the hard part—one must always see what one sees.” And what have average French voters seen recently? Since 2012 they have seen some of their own citizens, born and raised and educated in France, gun down Jews (including children) and soldiers and journalists, praising Allah as they do. They have seen hundreds more leave to fight in Iraq and Syria, in the same spirit. They are aware of teenagers posting pro-ISIS material on social networking pages. They saw that during the demonstrations against the most recent war in Gaza people chanted “death to the Jews” and others spray-painted graffiti with the same message. And they have read reports about a survey showing that 16 percent of the French, and 27 percent of those aged eighteen to twenty-four, have a very favorable or somewhat favorable view of ISIS (compared to 7 percent in Britain and 2 percent in Germany).

There are things they find harder to see. The sense in the poor and crime-ridden quartiers of abandonment by “the French”; the humiliating struggle to find decently paying permanent jobs; the tireless work of teachers and community workers to keep order and maintain the dignity of their neighborhoods; the successful integration of the majority of Muslims and their attachment to France. These, too, need to be publicized. But it is a major mistake to think that average French voters will see these things better if their eyes are turned away from another part of social reality—particularly the religious pressure I have described—or if they are called racists for discussing it."

"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline LondonRapLondon

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2111 on: February 17, 2015, 02:29:26 pm »
But it was, amongst other things.

Mazahirul Uloom ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2434213/urn/133307.pdf
Page 1 ... Main Findings ... The school’s curriculum is too narrow. ... followed by list.


Jamiatul Ummah ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2451244/urn/131388.pdf
Page 6 ... The quality of teaching is inadequate.... followed by list


Ebrahim Academy ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2451302/urn/136129.pdf
Page 7 The quality of teaching is inadequate.... followed by list


London East Academy ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2451246/urn/134810.pdf
Page 6 ... The quality of teaching is inadequate.... followed by list


Al-Mizan School ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2434617/urn/133646.pdf
Page 6 ... The quality of teaching is inadequate.... followed by list


East London Islamic School ... http://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/files/2434209/urn/139216.pdf
Page 1 ... The quality of education provided at the school is inadequate.... followed by list

They are well worth reading in full.

Having been personally a Chair of Governors through two Ofsted inspections, and having several family members who are in the teaching profession, all I will say is it's quite clear from reading those reports that while teaching the children to recite the Koran in Arabic may well be covered adequately, most other things including, with just a few exception studies, the general depth and quality of the teaching of the NC at any of those schools appears to be falling short of the required standards.

Equally alarming is the common thread of the seeming lack of good Governance, as well as the lack of adequate pre-checks on new staff, something that is flagged in at least two of the reports.

That's entirely to be expected, criticism is rarely welcomed by those who fervently believe they have an absolute and righteous conviction that what they are doing is correct (a trait noticeable not just in education but also within many strands of society and politics, humility and contriteness seemingly being a bit of a forgotten skill these days).

As for the expressed disquiet at the questioning of new pupils by the Inspectors, this questioning of pupils is done at all schools.


I think there's a lot more to it than 5 schools being highlighted by the media in an age where bash-the-Muslim is the new hobby of the right wing media.

Faith schools do produce many young students who are well educated. The Jewish schools are amongst some of the best performing academically. Catholic ones are highly reputed, to the extent that non-Catholics try to get their children in.

As for Muslim faith school's, they are relatively new (and dare I say, the funding is not as high as some of the other faith schools), despite this, they have received praise on the whole based on academic figures from the government:

Muslim state schools are among the most successful in the country in terms of both value-added scores and raw exam results, The TES can reveal.

Pupils make more progress at Muslim secondary schools than in any other type of school, including faith schools and non-religious comprehensives, figures from Whitehall show.

"Islamic state schools come joint top in primary school English tests, with more than 90 per cent of pupils achieving the Government’s target score in their key stage 2 exams. Only Jewish schools - long regarded as the most academically successful - can match the performance of Muslim schools on this measure."

https://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6006501

So really, there's more to it than those 5 Ofsted reports. And all the factors need to be looked at.



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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2112 on: February 17, 2015, 02:34:14 pm »
What on earth are you talking about? What is "militant secularism"?

You appear to see imperialism,

Will Self used that word.



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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2113 on: February 17, 2015, 02:38:47 pm »
Well I'll be damned, I need to buy a new dictionary and find out how many other words I've been misinterpreting all these years.

Definition and purpose are two different things. So go ahead, buy your dictionary but it won;t help you.

And, while you're at it buy Will Self a dictionary...he's the one who outlined that 'purpose' for satire. He's a satirist...I'd expect him to have a bit of an insight into the purpose of satire.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2114 on: February 17, 2015, 02:39:15 pm »
Round and round we go, just close this now it is getting nowhere. Religion aye, what a load of superstitious nonsense, opium for the masses so we are distracted from the real issues facing real people. Should not be allowed in any state schools. School is - amongst other things - for learning facts not fairy stories.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2115 on: February 17, 2015, 02:43:14 pm »

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2116 on: February 17, 2015, 02:46:57 pm »
Not a fan of Will Self. His surname is apt and his views and opinions his own. Interesting as he may be, I generally view him with suspicion. No idea why though. He always appears to me to be self serving and self important. However I could just be missing the joke.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2117 on: February 17, 2015, 04:17:13 pm »
I think this Frankie Boyle article is much better considered than Will Self's

Quote
Offence and Free Speech

I was asked to speak on a panel about offence and free speech post Charlie Hebdo. I always quite like the idea of speaking at some serious discussion, but in practice I just make everybody uncomfortable and they all smile at me uneasily in the way a posh cafe owner does when builders come in to buy rolls.  And yet current attitudes in Britain to offence and free speech certainly mean that I've  got a lot of fucking time on my hands, so I thought I'd take a break from building matchstick cathedrals and learning the harpsichord to share my thoughts.

I find it incredibly worrying that we no longer need to hear the actual content of the thing we're told to be offended by. We hear of people being arrested for tweets without the tweet being reported; comics are blasted for routines that aren't printed; newspapers hire lip-readers to find something to get offended by at the tennis and then print the resulting fuckfest as asterisks. And who decides whether we should be outraged at something we haven't seen or heard? The press. Our seething collective Id. None of us would trust a journalist to hold our pint while we went to the bathroom, yet we allow them to be ethical arbiters for the entire culture.

I don't read newspapers anymore - I just lie to myself and cut out the middleman, but I think it's important to note that the press themselves are not actually outraged by what they report on as being offensive. No tabloid journo -whose life is invariably a shattered kaleidoscope of prostitutes, gambling, cocaine, self-loathing, literally going through a strangers bins, erectile disfunction and cocaine-  is genuinely offended when some students dress up as the Twin Towers for Halloween. Outrage just makes good copy. It's easier to write, and simpler to understand. A tabloid hack knows that their average reader can barely read and they're not going to try to communicate anything like ennui in the vocabulary of a ten year old.

Offence is often simply an attempt to deny reality. Avant-garde film makers get attacked for saying things that are avant-garde; comedians get attacked for making jokes and footballers get attacked for being stupid. Nowadays offence is taken symbolically. It even gets translated into symbolic terms. Imagine if I did a joke along the lines of...

The thing about that paedophile ring at Westminster is that they weren't even the worst MPs. There were people in Parliament who were to the right of MPs that STRANGLED KIDS. And they actually did more harm than paedophiles. I mean, the nonces tried to do harm in their own little way, but Thatcher fucked ALL the kids.

 
Not my finest work, but it doesn't matter because if it started a shitstorm, the joke itself wouldn't be printed. I would be in trouble because I'd joked about abused children or made a sick joke about a dead pensioner. The joke itself would be translated into these terms so as to maximise offence and minimise its message. I would be adjudged to have transgressed on a symbolic level, like some gibbering 13th Century Heretic.

Also, a lot of people would form an opinion about the joke without having heard it. It's a feature of late capitalism that we get a lot of information thrown at us, and we have to make snap decisions and form strong opinions without really knowing anything. Sure, if our football club buys a new centre half we might do a bit of research. But often we're just being asked if we should bomb Syria or not, and we're busy, and we just have to say fuck it, yeah, my mate Gavin's in the army, so yeah.

It's important not to confuse social progress with increasing homogenisation. What appalls me is not teenagers trolling celebrities. Going on twitter and telling Danny Dyer you think he's a c*nt seems fine to me. Even - to be completely honest- even drunkenly tweeting him you're going to run over his legs with a truck - is actually what I see as the sort of thing a normal, healthy teenager might be up to. It's the ones who have gravitated towards accepting our increasingly formal culture that I worry about. Teenagers were allowed to vote at 16 in the Independence Referendum. They did a kind of Question Time at the Glasgow Hydro and the kids all turned up looking smart and asked Nicola Sturgeon and George Galloway some interesting questions. I was ffdisgusted. If you're 16 you shouldn't be asking George Galloway a polite question about currency union, you should be at home writing a song about how you want to take a shit in George Galloway's mouth.

Anyone offended by that should note that even on a good day I only really half agree with myself. So why did I write it, if it might offend you? Because it's worth saying, even though it's not entirely correct, and I don't really give a fuck about you, someone who might find a group of words in the wrong order too much to bear.

The sheer range of opinion on this planet means you can't be inoffensive. It's something that can only really be aspired to within homogenous groups or authoritarian societies. What would a completely inoffensive cartoon look like? Those little cartoons you used to see in Punch or Private Eye in a doctor's waiting room maybe? Always set in a doctor's office? Or showing two castaways on a desert island, or two eskimos by an igloo ice-fishing? I can't ever remember seeing a cartoon doctor who was black, or female. Even though the actual doctor I was there to see was both. You didn't even get black people as castaways on what were obviously Caribbean islands. And of course to, say, a Canadian, a joke about two eskimos (they don't like being called that by the way) sitting by an igloo would set you apart as a bitterly committed racist with a hardon of hate for indigenous people.

I'm not saying those old cartoons were ok: I'm saying we don't always recognise our own prejudices. Our individual maps of what is offensive and what is worthwhile are often determined by social class. There was a piece in the New Statesman recently about Tim Minchin, breathlessly titled "The Satirist Who Ran Out of Upwards To Punch". Now I love Tim's shows, but he'll probably have been surprised to find that he's the apotheosis of political comedy because "he wrote “The Pope Song”, which called the pontiff a motherf***er more than 40 times " (their asterisks) and delivers " ... a nine-minute beat poem called “Storm”, featuring a narrator at a north London dinner party getting increasingly angry with a tattooed hippie ... he berates her for her credulousness. The rant takes in psychics, homoeopathy, auras, star signs, spiritual healers and religious prophets."

You might have imagined that routines "punching up" against the big targets of the day would have to involve the international banking system; the arms industry; or even just the fact that the entire world is about to disappear screaming under boiling waves. To the well trained ear of the English middle classes, an authentic target is more likely to be something like "star signs". Something that you literally find on the same page of a newspaper as the cartoons. Perhaps the journalist actually understands better than me that real targets are off-limits, and is simply happy to see a routine socking it to the true enemy of The New Statesman reader,  "the tattooed hippie".

To be fair, that article was simply guilty of the Endtimes hubris that affects us all: we have started to attribute to our personal tastes and preferences a kind of moral force. We all live in a war economy, that launders criminal money and sells arms. Are some of us really morally superior because we don't like Top Gear? If you're an activist trying to do something important, I salute you. Most of us just give ourselves ethical brownie points for watching Channel 2 instead of Channel 3, like characters in a broad dystopian satire. Perhaps we're encouraged to see ourselves as embattled pockets of morality because that's how our country sees itself in the world. Rather than, say, a nuclear armed, money-laundering pirate ship, where all the ship's officers have been sent away from their families at a young age and deliberately driven insane through the medium of sodomy.

 
We hear a lot these days about jokes needing to have the right targets. I find it frankly suspicious that things like jokes, tweets and cartoons are asked to be increasingly socially responsible in societies that just happen to be run by controlling people who don't like to be laughed at.  Naturally, the idea that corporate journalism should have the right targets is so laughably unachievable that it's rarely mentioned anywhere..

I'm actually all for political correctness. If you want to work to change the usage of a word that's discriminatory then fine, I'm behind you. But that's a conversation that needs to be had in the culture. You can't just decide that commonly used parts of a language are evil and that the people who didn't get the memo must be bad people. Awkwardly, the areas of culture which would be most useful in updating how people perceive language are the very ones that are most censored. I tried to do a routine about why I thought we should be worried about Britain's "rape culture" on Live at The Apollo recently ( and I do feel we're reaching a crisis point where some people view rape as mere bad sexual etiquette, like patting your cock dry on a tea towel or paying in loose change) only to be told that while the sentiments of the routine were acceptable I just couldn't say the word rape. If you're any kind of writer these days the culture seems to be saying "Please challenge and provoke me, redefine how I see the world, while I scream my head off every time I hear something I don't like."

So now a lot of challenging stuff just doesn't get made. Good stuff that does get made is weaker because it has to contain the seeds of its own defence. Because when the baleful burning eye of journalism turns upon you, you want to be able to say that it was all completely defensible. Nobody wants to be stood on the doorstep in their dressing gown saying "Well, actually it was supposed to be thorny and ambiguous and disturbing. I know it didn't please people, but actually I was trying not to please them." to a bored reporter from the Daily Mail who in their head is already translating your play about right to die legislation into a call for disabled death camps.

In the future we will all be famous for 15 minutes. It will be on a daytime magazine programme and we will each wear a tasteful shirt and slacks combination. We'll be interviewed by  a soothing voice under a clock that's permanently set to 4PM. We will talk about the weather. We will record for months to get 15 minutes they can use in the edit. We will think that we recognise a faint, familiar smell from childhood, but it will turn out to be hand sanitizer. We will feel like saying something we shouldn't, something that will send them all scurrying about the studio floor screaming at each other like a besieged rat colony. We will stay on our best behaviour and feel relieved when it's over.

We don't live in a shared reality, we each live in a reality of our own, and causing upset is often the price of trying to reach each other. It's always easier to dismiss other people than to go through the awkward and time consuming process of understanding them. We have given taking offence a social status it doesn't deserve: it's not much more than a way of avoiding difficult conversations.
http://www.frankieboyle.com/frankie/free-speech.html
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Offline Piggies in Blankies

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2118 on: February 17, 2015, 04:22:36 pm »
I think there's a lot more to it than 5 schools being highlighted by the media in an age where bash-the-Muslim is the new hobby of the right wing media.

Faith schools do produce many young students who are well educated. The Jewish schools are amongst some of the best performing academically. Catholic ones are highly reputed, to the extent that non-Catholics try to get their children in.

As for Muslim faith school's, they are relatively new (and dare I say, the funding is not as high as some of the other faith schools), despite this, they have received praise on the whole based on academic figures from the government:

Muslim state schools are among the most successful in the country in terms of both value-added scores and raw exam results, The TES can reveal.

Pupils make more progress at Muslim secondary schools than in any other type of school, including faith schools and non-religious comprehensives, figures from Whitehall show.

"Islamic state schools come joint top in primary school English tests, with more than 90 per cent of pupils achieving the Government’s target score in their key stage 2 exams. Only Jewish schools - long regarded as the most academically successful - can match the performance of Muslim schools on this measure."

https://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6006501

So really, there's more to it than those 5 Ofsted reports. And all the factors need to be looked at.



If one wants to look at statistics, then we need to look beyond schools, we need to look at cultural groups.

Chinese girls perform better than any ethnic group in public examinations.

White working class boys are the worst performing group (by a fair way).  Next up are Pakistani Muslims boys who do far worse than Bangladeshi Muslim boys.

This is far better than looking at the resukts of Muslims state schools, the sample size is far too small to be of any real significance.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #2119 on: February 17, 2015, 05:03:42 pm »
Quote
You might have imagined that routines "punching up" against the big targets of the day would have to involve the international banking system; the arms industry; or even just the fact that the entire world is about to disappear screaming under boiling waves. To the well trained ear of the English middle classes, an authentic target is more likely to be something like "star signs". Something that you literally find on the same page of a newspaper as the cartoons. Perhaps the journalist actually understands better than me that real targets are off-limits, and is simply happy to see a routine socking it to the true enemy of The New Statesman reader,  "the tattooed hippie".

To be fair, that article was simply guilty of the Endtimes hubris that affects us all: we have started to attribute to our personal tastes and preferences a kind of moral force. We all live in a war economy, that launders criminal money and sells arms. Are some of us really morally superior because we don't like Top Gear? If you're an activist trying to do something important, I salute you. Most of us just give ourselves ethical brownie points for watching Channel 2 instead of Channel 3, like characters in a broad dystopian satire. Perhaps we're encouraged to see ourselves as embattled pockets of morality because that's how our country sees itself in the world. Rather than, say, a nuclear armed, money-laundering pirate ship, where all the ship's officers have been sent away from their families at a young age and deliberately driven insane through the medium of sodomy.

Boyle's gone way up in my estimation.
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