Author Topic: Liverpool's Midfield  (Read 1828091 times)

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12280 on: October 2, 2017, 06:03:23 pm »
Yes I'm being facetious - but I do find it funny that you mostly seem to absolve him of much of the blame, while having no problem criticising others (e.g. Can).  To be fair to you, Klopp seems to share your blind spot when it comes to Gini - so you're in good company! So whereas I see a player not making himself available for a pass, taking too many touches on the ball, mis-controlling, playing safe/inaccurate passes.....you see a player who's technically and tactically excellent, one who's not the reason we often lack control and/or creativity in midfield.

This is the thing I am trying to focus on.

Let's assume we all agree those are the two problems we have. My argument is that Gini is trying to help us have more control and is sacrificing creativity. Henderson is trying to give us more creativity and sacrificing control. Coutinho's role is to focus on creativity above control. However, without that stable platform needs to come deeper than we would like. Therefore the whole thing looks very dysfunctional and I don't think there is a simple solution. I don't think there is one person to blame.

As Redmark pointed out earlier, last season there was more of a balance in our midfield in terms of touches and actions. This season Gini has gone down, the others have gone up. There are two ways to look at that - Gini is not doing enough, others are carrying him. But that doesn't translate to what I see on the pitch because the problem is the midfield shape is a mess. The alternative is the midfield is trying too hard/to do too much and Gini is having to move around in relation to them plugging holes. This does look more like what I am seeing on the pitch with players constantly getting caught ahead of the ball, running out of position, in Can's case, walking around when it happens.

It's basically a chicken and the egg question almost. Is Gini's involvement & stats tanking as he is trying to solve the midfield problems. Or is his involvement and stats the midfield problem the others are trying to solve?

One thing is true, the longer this goes on, the more likely it is Klopp will start binning people and decide to sign better players than just mould what he has into roles. Only Gini is a midfielder he has signed at the moment. Maybe others fit tactically what he would like to do and Gini isn't the player he hoped he would be, maybe he is trying to mould them into what he wants and it's not working?

I'm trying to ask different questions to make us think about other things instead of making statements of fact about the players in there. I think the group is failing. It seems people want to finger just one person for the failings. I think it's much deeper and more complicated than that. I do think the worst offender is Can though- but that's just an opinion. I see failings in them all. Bar Coutinho maybe if we give him a free pass as the Kagawa in the team. However, if he is our Lallana in a midfield 3, rather than a Kagawa #10, then he's also part of the problem so far tactically despite his individual numbers being excellent so far.
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Offline Triad

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12281 on: October 2, 2017, 06:11:07 pm »
Except we didn't play the same system for the whole of the match.Surely during the last 20 minutes of the match his role was different as he was playing much deeper.

Offline IgorBobbins

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12282 on: October 2, 2017, 06:27:23 pm »
Fair enough, Babu.

I'm definitely not trying to pin all the team's failings on Gini. That would be ridiculous. I do feel, however, that he kind of sums up the overall inadequacies of the team. The more I watch of the players, the more I feel that lots of them are just not good enough for where we want/expect to be as a club. It's a horrible feeling, to be honest. I want them to be something they're not. There are issues in every position - nothing's settled, or consistent, or predictable (in a good way).  And this isn't just a knee-jerk reaction from the last game, I've felt this for a while. Yes, we can have good days (Arsenal) but those performances seem more and more to be the exception, not the rule.

We're a club of inconsistencies - from the owners, to the manager, to the players. You don't know what you're going to get from one day (or half of football) to the next.

(Sorry - I know this thread's about our midfield, not the team as a whole).


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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12283 on: October 2, 2017, 06:50:23 pm »
There is a difference between absolving him of blame, and trying to understand what players are trying to do that we perhaps don't pay attention to that sees him getting picked even when, statistically and in terms of watching the game as a fan, he's having a rough time. Klopp is picking him for a reason. Rather than assuming there is none, I am merely trying to offer a possible reason for that, than jump in with everyone else labelling him a ghost. Surely it's a more interesting conversation that way, no?

Of course he is getting picked for a reason but Gini has to do more for us in midfield just with his physical presence alone and being more influential on the game than he is.

Everyone can have bad games but it is getting a common theme with Gini that more often than not he doesn't step it up when we need him. He has the talent so then it must be a mentality thing.

Offline rawcusk8

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12284 on: October 2, 2017, 06:56:05 pm »
This has to be one of the most depressing threads on Rawk, narrowly being beaten by the Defence(!) thread. I'm pinning my hopes on Lallana coming back and being our saviour.
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Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12285 on: October 2, 2017, 07:30:12 pm »
Of course he is getting picked for a reason but Gini has to do more for us in midfield just with his physical presence alone and being more influential on the game than he is.

Everyone can have bad games but it is getting a common theme with Gini that more often than not he doesn't step it up when we need him. He has the talent so then it must be a mentality thing.
I think you are missing the point I am making though.

The general consensus is that Klopp has a blindspot for him. As Rafa had with Kuyt. My point is instead of thinking like this - which works on the assumption the manager is in the wrong and our criticism of the player is right - look at it from a different perspective to see what he might be looking at that currently we as fans are not. It doesn't mean you have to accept this perspective as correct, and you can still disagree with the manager, but it's better to understand and disagree than not even see what the player is doing and not understand why they are picked - which I think is where most are at with Gini.

Fair enough, Babu.

I'm definitely not trying to pin all the team's failings on Gini. That would be ridiculous. I do feel, however, that he kind of sums up the overall inadequacies of the team. The more I watch of the players, the more I feel that lots of them are just not good enough for where we want/expect to be as a club. It's a horrible feeling, to be honest. I want them to be something they're not. There are issues in every position - nothing's settled, or consistent, or predictable (in a good way).  And this isn't just a knee-jerk reaction from the last game, I've felt this for a while. Yes, we can have good days (Arsenal) but those performances seem more and more to be the exception, not the rule.

We're a club of inconsistencies - from the owners, to the manager, to the players. You don't know what you're going to get from one day (or half of football) to the next.

(Sorry - I know this thread's about our midfield, not the team as a whole).
No need to apologise for that. I think it's hard to talk about the midfield without looking at how they impact on other parts of the team, and vice versa. Like how I blame the midfield largely for defensive problems. I deal the midfield largely for goalscoring (when the front plays aren't linking up with midfield or having no chances created to work with).

I agree with you about our midfield btw. Center back and goalkeeper too. The only thing I would say is that often one problem can make them all look shit. For example for Arsenal against us, Ramsey abandoning midfield all game made the Arsenal team collapse. He wasn't available to stop Gini making overloads on their left to help out Holding and Chamberlain (Chamberlain had a pop at him the second time it happened). He wasn't protecting in front of defence in those spaces Firmino likes to drop into so Xhaka is trying to protect 40 yards of space rather than 20 and ends up looking like he is doing nothing. The center backs need to step up into those spaces too. Or move wider to deal with overloads that Mane, Moreno & Gini are making. Everything fails because of the actions of one or two not doing their jobs. Until they are (or they are replaced with someone who is), it becomes hard to assess exactly how big the problem is.

Would a better commanding CB make the whole defence look better. Would the Hendo-Gini-Lallana dependable trio last season make the defence look better? Would a tactically clever #6 make take our midfield up another level? The answer to them all for me is maybe. Or it could just highlight other problems better. Maybe Lovren is too aggressive and Matip is too passive for the system so ultimately we will need another CB, for example. We probably won't know the answer to that until Klopp adds a CB that looks solid and we see how everyone else looks beside him.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12286 on: October 2, 2017, 08:17:39 pm »
Agree with everything you said about our tempo and the actions (or lack of) of the #8. Against Spartak I noted how Can didn't link up with any of our front 4. It was the same here with Gini (bar Salah who he played in a few times during the game). But he didn't link up at all well with Coutinho. More worryingly I only saw him as a passing option when Migs, Gomez, Lovren or Matip had the ball. When Henderson/Coutinho had the ball, his movements were in relation to opening or closing spaces rather than offering himself for a pass.

...

Basically... I'm looking at his function in a unit rather than looking at his numbers in isolation, which are shite. Based purely on those numbers, you wouldn't want him in the side. But given he is playing, let's assume Klopp is happy (enough) with him and work out what he is doing off the ball that is contributing enough to keep him in the side. Those are the things I see him doing which have no statistical value. Even on the Atsu counters he didn't make a tackle or win the ball, just chased him, forced him to turn around and the ball went backwards ending the counter. A statistical value of 0 - and yet without it would could have had another Vardy goal like we saw at Leicester where the winger gets away from Gomez and crosses.

The alternative possibility is that he isn't doing enough, Klopp isn't happy with it - yet is the only midfielder we have who thinks of space first (Although I think Milner does as well). Dropping him causes a problem as the alternatives (Can, Grujic, Milner) would cause us further problems in terms our compactness which is the reason our midfield is being too easy to play through at the moment. This results in him being practically undroppable despite his performances being way below what is required.

Interestingly of course, for the first game (Spartak) we played where Coutinho and Mane were both available, Klopp picked Can rather than Wijnaldum; then reversed that selection for the next game. That may indicate firstly that Klopp recognises that position is the 'issue' at the moment; and that he doesn't necessarily have a blind spot for Wijnaldum (particularly given Can's less than inspirational form). It would be informative, if he didn't need to be so thoroughly acclimatised tactically, how quickly Oxlade Chamberlain might be preferred (and also how unlikely Milner seems to be considered as a regular starter anywhere, these days).

Klopp has a bit of thinking time available over the next week or so, though unfortunately not time with too many of the possible solutions. Is Grujic in Serbia's squad?


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Offline Chalky Boots

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12287 on: October 3, 2017, 12:27:11 am »
is it time to try a 3-5-2 formation with 3 centrehalves with coutinho and salah wide and can gini and hendo in middle with mane and bobby up top?something had to change as the midfield are not doing their job in protecting the back 2 as happened yesterday.just before shelvey makes that pass you can see theres only matip and lovren in our half.

I genuinely don't think putting an extra centre halve in would solve a lot. We saw it last season when we tried it, it can be too flat. From what I've seen so far this season I'd like Klopp to revert back to his tried and trusted 4231. We have the personnel to revert to it; Coutinho can play left, Solanke while wholly inexperienced is a good reference point to the attack (Firmino is an alternative variation too with more pedigree at the moment), Salah genuinely looks like he could be an outstanding number 10; like a 12/13 Thomas Muller on nitrous oxide, and it then allows Mane to shift back to the right where he looks at his most unpredictable.

The question would still be on the midfield of course. Henderson in a midfield two from memory is very hot and cold, additionally I don't think him and Emre can play together. Emre alternatively was excellent in that role 18 months ago and seems to look more at ease playing with a clearly defined role; at the moment he's effectively playing 8 and 10 and I think that's why he keeps struggling on turnovers because he's so far ahead and he's not a 24 year old Gerrard.

The option to play with either then comes down to either Wijnaldum or Grujic. The way Gini has played this season, and given his age, at this point I'd rather give Marko the opportunity to finally make his mark. Sure he can be rash, but it's apparent in any game he's in he gives us a huge ariel boost, he's also snide and a distance threat on goal. To be honest it'd be quite refreshing to see a pair of horrible sods play in midfield as well. From a tactical point of view both Matip and Lovren are then - theoretically- well protected and we're then not over reliant on passing it through the lines because we'll have a clear reference point in attack. More to the point you're adding clear height into the side, which would surely help on set pieces just through sheer presence.

Obviously I loved watching us last season but it becomes more and more evident that it was too dependant on a set group being available to work; even last season we saw how easily it broke down in the absence of Mane, Lallana, Coutinho or Firmino.
Clearly it'd still be an option as well but I would just love to see us become that signature Klopp team, with physicality,discipline, speed and verticality; I mean it's clear as day why Bayern want him as well given Heynckes and arguably the best team I've seen for the last 20 years was literally based on his approach.

Offline Giono

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12288 on: October 3, 2017, 01:58:18 am »
There is a difference between absolving him of blame, and trying to understand what players are trying to do that we perhaps don't pay attention to that sees him getting picked even when, statistically and in terms of watching the game as a fan, he's having a rough time. Klopp is picking him for a reason. Rather than assuming there is none, I am merely trying to offer a possible reason for that, than jump in with everyone else labelling him a ghost. Surely it's a more interesting conversation that way, no?

Last season nobody was accusing him of being a ghost. But this season they are. Something has changed.

Coutinho is now in midfield...on the left. That's a big change. Gini is on the right mostly this season.

The majority of Henderson's passing goes to the left.  A lot of our play this season goes down our left.

We have two U20s playing right wingback. Our newest starting player, Salah, plays on the right ahead of him.

I'm not surprised that he has lower touches. And I guess he is tactically adjusting for TAA/Gomez and Salah?

There are reasons why Klopp is favouring him. I don't think it is that Klopp is renting a house Gini owns. :)
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12289 on: October 3, 2017, 04:07:06 am »

Good post mate, sorry for the late reply I've been busy with work and you know... different time zones. ;D

I get what you mean about the overload to the left and we being on numerical disadvantage on the center, Henderson definitely knows that as he moves to the left to be a part of the move. I agree with the majority of your post but what I don't entirely agree with you is that the right pass was to Coutinho there.

Yes, in that frame it looks like Coutinho has gained a couple of yards on his marker, but what that image doesn't tell you but the video will, is that for almost the entire time between the Phil pass to Mane and the Mane pass to Henderson, that passing lane was covered by the Newcastle striker that was marking Phil originally, so Jordan might had already made up his mind to turn into space when he was receiving the ball as he didn't see no clear pass before it. It would have taken an almost unnatural awareness to see the little space Coutinho gains on his marker while simultaneously shaping his body to receive the pass from Mane, all the time with his eyes on the ball. We’re talking about splits of a second here.

Like you said, one he turns to his right there's almost no other option than to go through Sturridge but I still don't see the amount of risk in that pass as you see. To me it looks like a simple pass into the feet of target man that was lightly marked, and I don't think we gain "nothing" from going through him either. If Dani controls the ball and passes it into the space on the left channel, which with the way he was shaping his body looks like he was trying to do, Alberto has plenty of time and space to run behind or at their fullback and put a cross in. Yes, it's not a clear goal scoring opportunity but I don't think it was worthless either.

I'm intrigued by those other instances you mentioned Henderson played that kind of ball and we almost conceded; I really don't remember them but I will look for them as maybe that can help me understand your frustration with that pass.

Edit:

I went and look into that play again and yes there's the definitely a space between the three Newcastle players that Jordan could have played the ball through for Coutinho, you were right. He would have been under pressure immediately from the Newcastle players but still might have been less "risky" given that we have more people there. Still for me the goal of the play still remains the same, get the ball to Moreno, and I venture to say that a Sturridge's pass into that channel gets Alberto into a better position than a Coutinho's one.



« Last Edit: October 3, 2017, 05:11:07 am by Lastrador »

Offline jepovic

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12290 on: October 3, 2017, 08:18:47 am »
Called me old fashioned, but with a three man midfield, I would expect the 6 to be the main responsible for covering space and keeping the team together. The other two should press, link up with attackers and create chances. Whenever we played with Lucas there, this was crystal clear.

It's possible that Gini is trying to cover space somehow, although I don't see it. My interpretation is that Gini is simply too passive, with and without the ball. This makes Henderson frustrated when we don't score, and then Henderson (being captain and ambitious) tries to do Gini's job in addition to his own. '

With Can in Gini's position, we have a much more active player. He takes more risks, shows more for the ball, passes more, etc. Perhaps he's being a bit undisciplined, but in principle I think Can is doing what that role demands. Recently though, Can has simply been far too wasteful and poor with the ball. He's missing passes and shooting all over the place. That's not tactics, that's lack of form or skill. Personally I hate it when passivity, like Gini, is rewarded more than trying and failing, like Can, but in the end none of it works.

If we had a better player in the Can/Gini role, like Keita, I think Henderson could calm down and focus on his role as 6. This would help the defense as well. Someone called Henderson Lucas MkII in a derigatory fashion, but if he does it right I think it could work brilliantly. Henderson should try to be a young Lucas, not a Gerrard light.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12291 on: October 3, 2017, 11:55:29 am »
I feel there are other quirks of Henderson's passing which leads to Gini not getting the ball this season. When under pressure Henderson likes to pass it back and defer responsibility to a central defender to make the forward pass. He favours the left sided central defender here too as he doesn't have to turn counter-clockwise as much. So the ball then gets distributed to Moreno or hoofed up the pitch. Gini is not going to see the ball in these cases.

And if Henderson feels he has the luxury of time he likes to chip it over midfield up to wide/attackers and advanced wingbacks.

So, is it that Gini is not presenting himself as a target, or that he is not a prime target for the main distributor of the ball? I'm not making any claims that Gini is some kind of undropable phenomenal player. But maybe the dysfunction of our midfield is not totally down to him and that the 'hiding' claim is not totally down to him too.

The talk of him being invisible was there last year too. I also have the same question you do, why is 'nobody' passing to Wijnaldum? I have been paying a lot of attention to this because people were pointing his touches stat. It is really hard to have touches if those one expects would be passing to him don't. I have noticed that most of the passes come to him when someone behind him is under pressure and he has made himself available. In the last game pretty much the only player behind him using him to build up play was Gomez. It was 'funny' to see that when Firmino came on late in the game he did use Wijnaldum to play the ball off almost immediately.

Lets not forget that Wijnaldum captained a team to the title at PSV, the idea that he is hiding or not working seems pretty ridiculous in that context so I am mystified as to what is going on in midfield.

I was tending to watch more off the ball than on the ball with the game at the weekend with our midfield - as I think off the ball you see more of the problems. So I can tell you what Gini is doing, I don't know if it's instructed, the correct thing to do, or if it is contributing to the problems.

~snip~

Basically... I'm looking at his function in a unit rather than looking at his numbers in isolation, which are shite. Based purely on those numbers, you wouldn't want him in the side. But given he is playing, let's assume Klopp is happy (enough) with him and work out what he is doing off the ball that is contributing enough to keep him in the side. Those are the things I see him doing which have no statistical value. Even on the Atsu counters he didn't make a tackle or win the ball, just chased him, forced him to turn around and the ball went backwards ending the counter. A statistical value of 0 - and yet without it would could have had another Vardy goal like we saw at Leicester where the winger gets away from Gomez and crosses.

The alternative possibility is that he isn't doing enough, Klopp isn't happy with it - yet is the only midfielder we have who thinks of space first (Although I think Milner does as well). Dropping him causes a problem as the alternatives (Can, Grujic, Milner) would cause us further problems in terms our compactness which is the reason our midfield is being too easy to play through at the moment. This results in him being practically undroppable despite his performances being way below what is required.

I wonder if you can shed any light on this. I find it so hard to believe that he is in the team pretty constantly yet hiding and not doing what he is instructed. I have also been watching Wijnaldum a lot in the last few games and I just don't understand why 'nobody' from the midfield or the central defenders or Henderson pass to him. At the beginning of most matches I see him make himself available a lot but he gets 'ignored', I do understand why Coutinho is the preferred option but it isn't the case that Wijnaldum can't receive the ball in tight spaces, we have seen him play one-touch football in plenty of occasions too, so it isn't the case that he can't do the job of advancing play, so what is going on in midfield?
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12292 on: October 3, 2017, 12:31:14 pm »
I'm intrigued by those other instances you mentioned Henderson played that kind of ball and we almost conceded; I really don't remember them but I will look for them as maybe that can help me understand your frustration with that pass.

Will reply to you properly later as I have a load of work to finish at the moment. Also I remembered a 3rd. I'm trying to dig up gifs/vids to show you.

1st one was against Hoffenheim. Unfortunately cannot find a gif and think I deleted the game after I did the roundtable post. I'll try to search it out though.


The fact Arsenals diamond is within our midfield shape there means it should be avoided. Unless Firmino is unmarked and simply can turn away from it. But the pressure behind him means there is a risk he needs to control the ball while moving towards the underload. The bad touch merely compounded a bad situation to receive the ball in. The worst thing in this clip, which is what I used it to illustrate in the roundtable for Arsenal was Emre Can walking while everyone else runs to get back.

The 3rd one I remembered isn't as similar at all - as they are all simple vertical ground balls into feet but it does show the decision making process again when it comes to passing.
https://m.ok.ru/video/326564055654
It's about 7:40 on that video. Hendo received the ball from Mignolet and plays it long and straight for Firmino. It's picked up by City and one through ball later it's a goal to them. The better balls are away from the middle area as we are wide open. Plus if you look at the bottom of the screen, we have both Mane & Moreno on the left against 1 defender. Instead playing into the middle means hitting it into the most congested area where center backs are favourites to win it and, if we lose it, we are wide open on the counter through the middle.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12293 on: October 3, 2017, 12:44:35 pm »
The fact Arsenals diamond is within our midfield shape there means it should be avoided. Unless Firmino is unmarked and simply can turn away from it. But the pressure behind him means there is a risk he needs to control the ball while moving towards the underload. The bad touch merely compounded a bad situation to receive the ball in. The worst thing in this clip, which is what I used it to illustrate in the roundtable for Arsenal was Emre Can walking while everyone else runs to get back.
But that's a good 'packing' pass ;).

If Firmino controls that, Can has dropped off his equivalent, Firmino can lay the ball off, Can can run and pass or pass first time between Chamberlain and (I assume) Chambers, for a Moreno run and within a few seconds we're at the edge of Arsenal's box, with Mane and Salah (and probably at least one of Wijnaldum/Can) oncoming for a cross or pullback.

We have to be able to make that pass - and, if it doesn't come off, deal with losing possession. If we don't, we're back to what we've seen several times this season (for example, the second half on Sunday) of mostly passing slowly back and forth sideways across the face of an opponent's midfield line.

Everyone started deeper in that Arsenal example, but one thing we did correctly there is that immediately on losing possession, Matip and Lovren narrowed and dropped. We didn't do that against Newcastle, or in the City example. In the Arsenal example Henderson also reacted and challenged the oncoming Arsenal player - even not winning the challenge, that was disruptive enough to at least prevent an early through ball before the defence had chance to react.
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Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12294 on: October 3, 2017, 01:48:36 pm »
But that's a good 'packing' pass ;).

If Firmino controls that, Can has dropped off his equivalent, Firmino can lay the ball off, Can can run and pass or pass first time between Chamberlain and (I assume) Chambers, for a Moreno run and within a few seconds we're at the edge of Arsenal's box, with Mane and Salah (and probably at least one of Wijnaldum/Can) oncoming for a cross or pullback.

We have to be able to make that pass - and, if it doesn't come off, deal with losing possession. If we don't, we're back to what we've seen several times this season (for example, the second half on Sunday) of mostly passing slowly back and forth sideways across the face of an opponent's midfield line.

Everyone started deeper in that Arsenal example, but one thing we did correctly there is that immediately on losing possession, Matip and Lovren narrowed and dropped. We didn't do that against Newcastle, or in the City example. In the Arsenal example Henderson also reacted and challenged the oncoming Arsenal player - even not winning the challenge, that was disruptive enough to at least prevent an early through ball before the defence had chance to react.

There is a similar sort of pass here by Schweinsteiger against Dortmund. They have set up a pressing trap and given him an out pass. However, once the attack breaks down look at the Dortmund and Bayern shape. They have a free man left. They have 3v1 on the right, in the middle they are heavily outnumbered by Dortmund who have 6 players inside their midfield shape.
https://youtu.be/vD59Y4EHMPE?t=153

It's moments like this when risk v reward is too high. So going back to look at the Arsenal one, their midfield shape is inside ours. Which means if Firmino has a bad touch, or if he controls the ball in the direction of Henderson he is boxed in. He needs to find a pass through or around Arsenal players of he gives it away. It is more noticeable when you watch the game on slow motion if you have a copy.

The original conversation on this was in the Moreno thread, for some reason. Anyway this is one of my posts on it there where I also talk a bit more about it.

If I was being critical of Firmino in that too, he could make one of those little double movements to one side, then drop quickly towards Henderson. It's harder for the marker to track him, this would also mean he isn't running vertically towards Henderson. That Henderson can play into his path and Firmino has more scope to play anywhere on on left flank first time rather than needing to take a touch as he felt he did.

That is the interesting thing in football, you can look at any gif from any match and see little things that can be done different that change the outcome. It's not being critical, just a discussion on all the options footballers have in each scenario. I also like doing it as it's one of the best way to expand how to see the game.

If you just say Henderson is right there and it was poor first touch - it's too simple. There is a load of things every player can do different in every situation. It also doesn't acknowledge the fact that if you are a badly hit pass or bad first touch away from likely conceding a goal - then maybe you were choosing too risky an option.
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Offline lionel_messias

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12295 on: October 3, 2017, 02:35:50 pm »
There is a similar sort of pass here by Schweinsteiger against Dortmund. They have set up a pressing trap and given him an out pass. However, once the attack breaks down look at the Dortmund and Bayern shape. They have a free man left. They have 3v1 on the right, in the middle they are heavily outnumbered by Dortmund who have 6 players inside their midfield shape.
https://youtu.be/vD59Y4EHMPE?t=153

It's moments like this when risk v reward is too high. So going back to look at the Arsenal one, their midfield shape is inside ours. Which means if Firmino has a bad touch, or if he controls the ball in the direction of Henderson he is boxed in. He needs to find a pass through or around Arsenal players of he gives it away. It is more noticeable when you watch the game on slow motion if you have a copy.

The original conversation on this was in the Moreno thread, for some reason. Anyway this is one of my posts on it there where I also talk a bit more about it.


Good grief, you must be sitting in a bunker somewhere, constantly typing. Hope you have enough glucose tablets and a sandwich!
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Offline 24/7

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12296 on: October 3, 2017, 03:01:44 pm »
Good grief, you must be sitting in a bunker somewhere, constantly typing. Hope you have enough glucose tablets and a sandwich!
That's not a helpful thing to post. Have a think, eh? Make a contribution instead of a sly dig. Try debating instead.

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=336698.0
« Last Edit: October 3, 2017, 03:16:17 pm by 24/7 »

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12297 on: October 3, 2017, 04:20:01 pm »
That's not a helpful thing to post. Have a think, eh? Make a contribution instead of a sly dig. Try debating instead.

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=336698.0

Okay dokey I will make contributions to the debate. Babu is a valued poster in these parts, I just saying he posts a lot of words, that's all.

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Offline Chalky Boots

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12298 on: October 3, 2017, 11:00:39 pm »
Will reply to you properly later as I have a load of work to finish at the moment. Also I remembered a 3rd. I'm trying to dig up gifs/vids to show you.

1st one was against Hoffenheim. Unfortunately cannot find a gif and think I deleted the game after I did the roundtable post. I'll try to search it out though.

..snip..

I genuinely thought it was just me but I now I know I'm not completely insane! It's a good pass in it's idea and frankly he needs to try it A LOT more but he's doing in the wrong zones. I think if you pick out say Busquets as an example, he does that kind of pass (especially under Pep) past the half way line; it works because the opposition aren't in a position to hurt you and it injects speed into the move. I think doing it that deep is another case of forcing the issue (kind of like when he's just been booting it long for Salah/Mane to chase), I don't think that's instructed rather it's a case of poor decision making. That said I do think in situations like that it's where he misses his pal Lallana; you'd probably see him release it more off to the side and Adam can then move us up from areas that are less likely to cause a turnover.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12299 on: October 6, 2017, 07:54:39 am »
His thread is closed but is no journalist going to challenge the club / Klopp about us not being able to hold on to one of the best prospects in football? Emre's situation is making me more depressed than Coutinho's.
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12300 on: October 6, 2017, 08:18:59 am »
His thread is closed but is no journalist going to challenge the club / Klopp about us not being able to hold on to one of the best prospects in football? Emre's situation is making me more depressed than Coutinho's.

I wouldn't say he's one of the best prospects in football and I'm not going to lose any sleep once he goes to Juve.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12301 on: October 6, 2017, 08:22:50 am »
His thread is closed but is no journalist going to challenge the club / Klopp about us not being able to hold on to one of the best prospects in football? Emre's situation is making me more depressed than Coutinho's.

Nah.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12302 on: October 6, 2017, 09:23:23 am »
His thread is closed but is no journalist going to challenge the club / Klopp about us not being able to hold on to one of the best prospects in football? Emre's situation is making me more depressed than Coutinho's.

lol

Offline ThePoolMan

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12303 on: October 6, 2017, 09:57:28 am »
It is a pity Can seems set on leaving on a free, but the midfielder whom we have already signed for next season is already a huge upgrade on him.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12304 on: October 6, 2017, 01:04:05 pm »
Can for me doesn't fit the system anyway. We need a full blown DM next to Keita / Hendo / Milner

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12305 on: October 6, 2017, 01:10:36 pm »
His thread is closed but is no journalist going to challenge the club / Klopp about us not being able to hold on to one of the best prospects in football?Emre's situation is making me more depressed than Coutinho's.


That's pushing it a bit far.

Not really that bothered if he signs a new contract to be honest. Sure he's talented, but at 23 going on 24 he is still wildly inconsistent for me and lacks the maturity on the pitch that he should be showing at his age. Everything seems to be rush, rush, rush, 100mph with him.
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12306 on: October 6, 2017, 02:01:38 pm »
Best prospect in football? Hhahahah.


Fucks sake.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12307 on: October 7, 2017, 09:46:59 am »
He plays the role he's given. If you ask Can to play as the 6, he plays as a 6, if you ask him to play an 8 he plays it like an 8. He changes his game depending on the role, he should be more consistent but then again he also hasn't had the 5 straight years of (practically) non-stop football that the club captain has and even he, at 27, isn't consistent.

If Klopp wanted to revert back to the system he had at Dortmund at some point then Can is a better fit than any other midfielder currently at the club (Keita being the one soon-to-be exception).

Offline supaerheraw

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12308 on: October 7, 2017, 10:20:58 am »
The worst thing in this clip, which is what I used it to illustrate in the roundtable for Arsenal was Emre Can walking while everyone else runs to get back.
What the fuck is that about.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12309 on: October 9, 2017, 10:08:06 am »
It's mind boggling that Can wants to leave. Clearly in his last interview, he implies leaving by "my agent will take care of things once my contract is over". If anything, i think Klopp played him more than he should have.
Maybe he thinks slower paced style of Juve suits him much more. It's also annoying that we develope players like Suso, Can and they walk out on free.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12310 on: October 9, 2017, 02:38:42 pm »
To be fair, Suso didn't show anywhere near the ability Can has shown. Nor did he show any consistency - we didn't have the time or room to get him to this level IMO. We would have been in a position where we would have been loaning him out every season in the hope he came good. Did we really think Suso was capable of being where he is now? I don't believe so.

Can going is a blow. And he is gone IMO.

And we have no option but to play him, as Grujic isn't at the level where he can come in and be a first teamer, and Can has been in great for since January. We need Can more than he needs us, which is a shame as it would have been good to use Can's minutes to develop Grujic.

Offline Triad

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12311 on: October 9, 2017, 03:11:55 pm »
It's mind boggling that Can wants to leave. Clearly in his last interview, he implies leaving by "my agent will take care of things once my contract is over". If anything, i think Klopp played him more than he should have.
Maybe he thinks slower paced style of Juve suits him much more. It's also annoying that we develope players like Suso, Can and they walk out on free.
I think he genuinely thinks he can succeed as a top class 6.Maybe he will at Juve,you never know,he has all the requisite tools.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12312 on: October 9, 2017, 03:23:28 pm »
Just imagine for a moment that Can did stay next season and went number 6. (Maybe as skipper?) Also that Coutinho stays. We could do this.

 
Can

Keita Lallana Coutinho

Salah Firminho Mane

That's a team that keeps the ball, that attacks with fluency and pace, that likes a fucking tackle, and knows when and how to press. Goals everywhere too. And probably a lot less conceded.

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Offline Anfield89

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12313 on: October 9, 2017, 03:36:53 pm »
Just imagine for a moment that Can did stay next season and went number 6. (Maybe as skipper?) Also that Coutinho stays. We could do this.

 
Can

Keita Lallana Coutinho

Salah Firminho Mane

That's a team that keeps the ball, that attacks with fluency and pace, that likes a fucking tackle, and knows when and how to press. Goals everywhere too. And probably a lot less conceded.

Plan on Mane and Salah being wing backs?

Offline Phil M

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12314 on: October 9, 2017, 03:37:36 pm »
Just imagine for a moment that Can did stay next season and went number 6. (Maybe as skipper?) Also that Coutinho stays. We could do this.

 
Can

Keita Lallana Coutinho


Salah Firminho Mane

That's a team that keeps the ball, that attacks with fluency and pace, that likes a fucking tackle, and knows when and how to press. Goals everywhere too. And probably a lot less conceded.




And switch to 3 at the back?
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Offline tubby

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12315 on: October 9, 2017, 03:39:12 pm »
I'd like to see the defence in that formation.
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12316 on: October 9, 2017, 03:41:02 pm »
I'd like to see the defence in that formation.

 
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12317 on: October 9, 2017, 10:08:53 pm »
It's mind boggling that Can wants to leave. Clearly in his last interview, he implies leaving by "my agent will take care of things once my contract is over". If anything, i think Klopp played him more than he should have.
Maybe he thinks slower paced style of Juve suits him much more. It's also annoying that we develope players like Suso, Can and they walk out on free.
It's not only mind boggling it's very depressing as it represents the lack of faith a top prospect has in this club. What I don't understand is:

1. Why the club/Klopp have not been challenged in the press at all regarding the situation

2. What are Emre's reasons for not signing - if it's some form of disrespect the club have shown him by low-balling him on wages similar to what we did with Sterling - I want to know this

3. Why the club/Klopp have not addressed the issue in the summer - if Can said he wasn't signing because of whatever reasons then get what you can for him and at least try and save some face. Now he's getting minutes that a player committed to Liverpool should be getting because of our poor planing.

All the people saying Can isn't really that good etc are probably the same ones that said Ibe was a ready made replacement for Sterling. Emre at only 23 is 2 games away from having 20 international caps for Germany has 130 odd appearances for LFC, add three more years of development on him and he'll start hitting his prime.
« Last Edit: October 9, 2017, 10:10:47 pm by Jacob Rees-Mogg »
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Offline Chalky Boots

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12318 on: October 9, 2017, 10:35:08 pm »
Pretty sure it was covered by the usual group that he wasn't signing because we were refusing to put a release clause in his contract.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #12319 on: October 10, 2017, 12:48:25 am »
It's not only mind boggling it's very depressing as it represents the lack of faith a top prospect has in this club. What I don't understand is:

1. Why the club/Klopp have not been challenged in the press at all regarding the situation

2. What are Emre's reasons for not signing - if it's some form of disrespect the club have shown him by low-balling him on wages similar to what we did with Sterling - I want to know this

3. Why the club/Klopp have not addressed the issue in the summer - if Can said he wasn't signing because of whatever reasons then get what you can for him and at least try and save some face. Now he's getting minutes that a player committed to Liverpool should be getting because of our poor planing.

All the people saying Can isn't really that good etc are probably the same ones that said Ibe was a ready made replacement for Sterling. Emre at only 23 is 2 games away from having 20 international caps for Germany has 130 odd appearances for LFC, add three more years of development on him and he'll start hitting his prime.

Most everything that you don’t understand can be explained with a simple google search.