Spyin' Kop: Beşiktaş v Liverpool - Wednesday October 24th 2007
Posted by andythecatuk on October 22, 2007, 06:09:49 PM
Spyin Kop: Champions League Group A, Matchday 3 - Beşiktaş (away)
After the highly controversial, and extremely funny, win at Goodison on Saturday it's a return to European action for the Reds this week. With just 1 point from the first two games following the 1-1 draw in Porto and the shock defeat 1-0 at Anfield against Marseille, the away game against Beşiktaş has already taken on the dimensions of a must-win.
24th October 2007K.O:
BJK İnönü StadiumStadium Capacity:
105 x 68 mStadium Address:
Akaretler Süleyman Seba Caddesi, No. 92
Turkish League Championships:
o Winners (12): 1956-1957, 1957-1958, 1959-1960, 1965-66, 1966-67, 1981-82, 1985-86, 1989-90, 1990-91, 1991-92, 1994-95, 2002-03
o Runners-up (14): 1962-63, 1963-64, 1964-65, 1967-68, 1973-74, 1984-85, 1986-87, 1987-88, 1988-89, 1992-93, 1996-97, 1998-99, 1999-00, 2006-07
o Winners (7): 1975, 1989, 1990, 1994, 1998, 2006, 2007
o Runners-up (6): 1966, 1977, 1984, 1993, 1999, 2002
Turkish Super Cup:
o Winners (1): 2006
o Runners-up (1): 2007
Form Guide (last six matches)
Beşiktaş to win: 9/2
Liverpool to win: 4/7
*Odds correct with williamhill.com as at 22/10/07
So, if youre anywhere near as naive as me, (which you probably arent), you wont know a great deal about Beşiktaş, or to give them their full name Beşiktaş Jimnastik Kulübü, which translates as Beşiktaş Gymnastics Club.
Formed in 1903, BJK was the first Turkish sports club and before being known for football, the earliest branches of the club included wrestling, boxing, weight-lifting and gymnastics. BJK still has many professional sides competing in a variety of sports today, including basketball, volleyball, handball and chess. The biggest fan group of the club are known as Çarşı (pronounced Charshi), and as well as showing strong vocal support to their team (they currently hold a world record for the loudest fans measured at 132 decibels) they are also known for their sensitivity in reflecting strong public opinions on such issues as opposition to nuclear waste and global warming.
The Çarşı support not only the football team, but any sport where the team is representing the Beşiktaş emblem. Çarşıs love and support for the emblem and black and white colours of the club is unwavering - no matter what position Beşiktaş are in, first, last, winning or losing, it doesnt matter - support for Beşiktaş is Çarşıs only thought. Someone more mischievous than I might suggest that some of our own take a leaf out of their book.
They are proud of the team representing the community and have a large proportion of student members you may be interested to know that Beşiktaş has more universities per sq km than anywhere else in Turkey. It is also, among other places, twinned with Brooklyn, New York. The Turkish flag which appears in Beşiktaş' emblem is a gift from the Turkish Football Federation. Beşiktaş earned the right to incorporate the flag after having their first team selected as the Turkish national squad to play against Greece in 1952. They are the only Turkish club to have the emblem as part of their badge.
Beşiktaş play their home games at the İnönü Stadium, which in stark contrast to the reports we have received here recently, was described by Pele as having the most beautiful views of any stadium in the world from certain sections of the home support you can see the Bosphorus strait, Dolmabahçe Palace, Dolmabahçe Clock Tower and the Dolmabahçe Mosque. It is the only stadium in the world from which a football fan can view two continents, Europe and Asia, which are separated by the Bosphorus.
Although this is Liverpools first visit to Beşiktaş, they are certainly no strangers to Istanbul, having played at Galatasarays Ali Sami Yen stadium during last years CL campaign, and Im fairly sure there was also a game at the national stadium (the Ataturk I think its called), sometime in 2005, but my memory is poor and I couldnt find much about it on the internet.
Despite no game history to look back on there are a couple of things that link our two clubs two ex Reds, namely Gordon Milne and John Toshack have managed Beşiktaş and achieved successes with the club, with Milne in particular leading them to a hat-trick of league titles in the early nineties.
Just as Liverpool are in England, Beşiktaş are considered one of the Big Four in Turkey along with Fenerbahçe, Galatasaray and Trabzonspor. They are one of the only sides in history to have won the Turkish Premier Division title.
I have to say a massive thank you to Cihangir from the forum at www.soccerfansnetwork.com
, Habib from the forum at www.bigsoccer.com
and Zenziyan from the Beşiktaş fans site www.since1903.org
(Zenziyans answers are a collaboration of opinions from the fans on his site), for their fantastic support in putting this article together. I asked a mountain of questions and they were only too happy to give up their time to answer them. I hope you find their responses interesting, amusing and informative. So, without any further ado, here goes my first attempt at a Spyin Kop
..1. In England we dont know a great deal about Turkish football could you tell us a bit about the history of Beşiktaş - perhaps your biggest achievements or greatest ever players?Cihangir -
Well, Beşiktaş is the first Turkish sports club, founded in 1903. Football wasnt the main branch for a few years though. Beşiktaş has always been the team of the working classes, just like Liverpool, and it still is. The core of the most significant fan group Çarşı (which means bazaar in Turkish), is made up of a group of people who work in the Beşiktaş Bazaar in the Beşiktaş district.
Beşiktaş European stats are not as good as Galatasarays though. We have qualified for the Champions League 3 times before, but never progressed further than the group stages, and Im pretty sure that we wont this year either. We have achieved some good results along the way though, beating Barcelona and Chelsea in the CL and in other EU Cups, we made it to the quarter finals of the Cup Winners Cup in 1987 and we managed to play in the quarter finals of the UEFA Cup in 2003, losing to SS Lazio 3-1 on aggregate.
Some of our legendary players consist of Hakkı Yeten and Süleyman Seba who are the fathers of Beşiktaş and any Beşiktaş fan would tell you their names first. In the 90s Metin Tekin, Feyyaz Uçar and Ali Gültiken ruled the Turkish league and Beşiktaş won the title 3 consecutive times. They are still the most popular trio of Beşiktaş players today. I must mention the names of Ertuğrul Sağlam (our current coach), Alpay Özalan (played for Aston Villa between 2000-2003), Sergen Yalçın (one of the most talented Turkish players alive and scorer of the two goals against Chelsea), Nihat Kahveci (you guys may know him from La Liga), İlhan Mansız (who scored the golden goal against Senegal in the quarter finals of the 2002 World Cup). The most significant foreign players to have played for us include Les Ferdinand, Alan Walsh, Daniel Amokachi, Pascal Nouma, John Carew, Oscar Cordoba, Federico Giunti, Jose Kleberson and Ricardinho. Wow sorry!Spyin Kop:
Well, I did ask (and I have edited this answer heavily already!!)Habib -
Beşiktaş Jimnastik Kulübü (BJK) was established in 1903 in the Ottoman Empire, and is the oldest Turkish sports club. Initially the branches of the club included only wrestling, boxing, weight-lifting and gymnastics. In 1911 two existing football clubs Valideçeşme and Basiret united under the Beşiktaş banner. The side is known as the Black Eagles after it was reported, that in coming back in the second half to win a very famous game in 1941, the team was attacking like Black Eagles. BJK is the only side authorized to display the Turkish flag on their emblem, having been given it by the Turkish Football Federation after having its full roster drafted as the Turkish national team, playing against the Greek national team on May 16, 1952.2. What were your first feelings when you were drawn in the Champions League Group with Liverpool, Marseille and Porto? Cihangir -
Liverpool is one of the biggest clubs in the world and historically has had exceptional results in this competition. Porto is another big club, having been crowned champions in 2004, and Marseille, although not as successful as the other two, is a prestigious club in France. I think it is an honour for our club to compete in this group.Zenziyan
When the groups were declared, I thought this was one of the best groups for us - I had some hope for qualification from the group. The only team that worried me was Liverpool.3. Its no secret that Liverpools start to their European campaign this year has not been great - what have you made of your start in the competition?Cihangir
Liverpools sloppy start is a surprise yeah and our start too in a way. I mean no sane person was expecting us to qualify but having lost the first two games I am honestly scared of a 0 point finish. I was actually expecting a win against Marseille, and in the match against Porto we played better than we played against Marseille, but still lost. Most of the fans relate this bad football to the boards instability and I agree with that.Habib -
The results have been very disappointing. I honestly believe that the way our side played we should have at least obtained a draw in each game, and probably should have won the Porto game. Here is a link to you tube highlights of the Porto game, see for yourself.
We didnt play well in the first game against Marseille so defeat was not unexpected, but the last was different. We played well, had many chances, but we couldnt score and then a last minute goal was really depressing. We dont want to say we were unlucky because luck is for losers not the winners
4. Is there an expectation from the Beşiktaş fans that the team should qualify from the group?Cihangir -
As I mentioned previously, no sane person could say that.Habib -
We expect to win the group easily! Seriously, our hope is that our side goes far in this competition but we realize that we are competing against some of the biggest clubs in the world. To qualify for the next round would be a huge accomplishment, qualifying for the UEFA Cup would be cool and just playing competitively in every match will be acceptable.Zenziyan -
As weve lost the first two games, we can win the last four games - we will keep our hopes up until there is no chance of qualification mathematically
but still, many BJK fans think it is hard to qualify. Third place would be a good result, taking into account the first two games.5. What have you thought of the way Beşiktaş have started the season in the Turkish Super League? What are your expectations for the rest of the season?Cihangir -
This year Beşiktaş will be playing for the title, since Fenerbahçe are not as effective as they were last season, although Galatasaray are better than us. We started off well, but had some scandals within the board, bad transfers, plus the board pressure over our coach (by the president) affected our game. We will fight Galatasaray for the title, trying to avoid any lost points against the other teams.Habib -
We are in third place, with fourteen points we are three points behind leaders Galatasaray. Other than a scoreless draw against bottom dwellers Ankaraspor and a loss against Cimbom I have been pleased. We need to score more goals. I expect BJK to make a serious run for the title. Fenerbache, have started the season poorly and second place upstarts Sivasspor will soon fade. It should be between Gala and us at the end of the season.Zenziyan
Beşiktaş havent started the season well and we are in third place right now. We have many young players and the experienced players havent made the best of their capacity. But this year, it will be a happy ending hopefully 6. Tell us a bit about the Beşiktaş fans. Do they have any favourite songs/chants for the team and what do they mean?Cihangir -
Beşiktaş fans are working class and left wingers and definitely the best in Turkey and Im not just saying that because Im a fan. I always think that we in some ways relate to Liverpool very much. No chant is better than Youll never walk alone in England and in Turkey Beşiktaş fans are the only ones who can come up with that kind of an emotion. There are just so many of these but this is my favourite;
Yağmurlu bir günde görmüştüm seni I saw you on a rainy day
Üstünde çubuklu formalar vardı You had your striped jersey on
Bir anda tutulmuş âşık olmuştum I was crushed and fell in love suddenly
Hayatın anlamı siyah beyazdı The meaning of life was black and white
Ölümle yaşamı ayıran çizgi The line that separates death and life
Siyahla beyazı ayıramaz ki Can not separate black and white
Her yolun sonunda ölüm olsa da Even if there is death at the end of all roads
Sevenleri kimse ayıramaz ki. No one can separate the ones in love.
Although I dont think Liverpool fans will hear it during the match - Its more special to the Turkish Super League. What you guys will hear is üçlü (trio) which is the most famous chant in Turkey and was introduced by Beşiktaş fans. With the kick off fans will shhh, hush up and count to three
One! Two! Three! and scream their asses of like Beşiktaş! Beşiktaş! Beşiktaş! la la la la la oooo Beesiiiktaaas!. Its like a festival every time they do that. When the team needs to score the fans will go on and on like "Kartal (Eagle - Eagles is Beşiktaş' nickname) gol gol gol! Kartal gol gol gol!" One time they chanted that for over 15 minutes. What's amazing with this is that fans build up the climax as the position develops and if the team scores eventually, it's their orgasm! LOL. You guys will probably hear that too!Habib -
When we defeated FC Sheriff Tiraspol of Moldova members of the crowd burst out in the Bob Marley tune I shot the Sheriff. Beşiktaş supporters are passionate. You can be assured that the Inonu will be rocking and that the flares will burn brightly. Rather than share with you any of our chants let me say that every time you hear the word Liverpool uttered in the İnönu, you can be assured that the words that follow are meant with the utmost sincerity!Zenziyan
It isnt easy to describe Beşiktaş fans with words, although we would say gratuitous loving fans or creative, loud and unique fans. We can sing very loud (132db was declared as the world record by Eurosport) and the Liverpool game is a candidate for a new record!
You can see our most popular chants and read their meanings on the chants page of our site:http://www.since1903.org/since1903/en/cheers.php7. What do you make of the signings you made in the close season how are they fitting into the team?Cihangir -
Most importantly weve got two very good keepers, the best Turkish keeper of all times Rüştü Reçber, and Hakan Arıkan who is a great prospect and current goalkeeper of us and the Turkish National Team. Tello from Sporting Lisbon is the best foreigner so far; he got used to the team pretty quick and has had good performances. Lamine Diatta is an alright choice in defence, although he is kind of old. Eduard Cisse from PSG had some problems getting used to the team and in many ways I think he is still not used to us. He is not stable- like the team in general.Habib -
Our major new signings were as follows:
Federico Martín Higuaín an Argentinian striker signed from River Plate; Lamine Diatta Senagaese a central defender signed from Toulouse FC; Édouard Cissé a French midfielder signed from PSG; Mehmet Yozgatlı a Turkish winger and Rüştü Reçber - stalwart national team keeper, both from Fenerbache, and Rodrigo Álvaro Tello Valenzuela a Chilean striker/midfielder, signed from Sporting.
Even though, Tello was somewhat of a controversial signing, because he has a reputation as being a trouble maker (he was signed in May before our new manager was named), he has so far proved to be our best signing. Cisse was brought in as a replacement for Kléberson, who returned to Brazil (Santos I think) and he is a worthy replacement. Diatta is unsettled in the defence and the jury is still out on him. Yozgath and Recber were bought in for insurance. Higuain has been a disappointment.Zenziyan
We have many new signings this year. Among them only Tello and Cisse are fitting in well to the team. Other transfers are Argentinean forward Federico Hugain, who is the brother of Hugain that is currently playing for Real Madrid, defender Diatta from St.Etienne and Turkish national goalkeepers Hakan Arıkan(young) and Rüştü(older).8. Who were your best players last season? Who made the biggest improvement?Cihangir -
My favorite player from last season is striker Bobo. He was young and he had a horrible time settling into the side, which drove most of the fans mad. He was the butt of a lot of jokes and Sergen Yalçın in an interview replied to a question about Bobo like Bobo? Well, at least his name is pretty. But Ive always thought he was a good player, he made a great improvement in his game and scored 24 goals in 34 matches last season - most of them were crucial goals. But I dont think he will be able to play against Liverpool since he was chopped down by Portos defence.Habib -
If you are referring to players who are no longer with the team, Sergen Yelcin was a legendary force and Kléberson was steady in the midfield. Our most improved player is Batuhan Karadeniz, an incredible sixteen-year-old talent. He is a striker and is destined for greatness. I just hope Benitez does not get any ideas should he see Batuhan play.Zenziyan
Bobo was our best player last year, he scored a lot more goals than he was expected to - he and Serdar Kurtulus, who is another young player at the club, made the biggest improvements. There are some requests for his transfer from French teams mostly, but he has recently signed a longer contract with the club.9. Who do you think are the best players in your squad and why?Cihangir -
Although he is going through a hard time, Hakan Arıkan is my favorite goalkeeper. He is technical and his positioning is pretty accurate, dont mind his CL performances. Ibrahim Toraman in defense, because he is strong and fast, an unlikely combination for a defender. I currently have no favorite midfielders and think that this is Beşiktaş problem area. Im starting to like our prospect Serdar Özkan on the wings though. Finally as a striker I say Bobo, as I mentioned earlier. He has some flaws but he is improving and thats why I like him.Habib -
Tello has been our most consistent scorer and Ibrahim Toraman has been phenomenal in central defence, and of course our goal keeper, Hakan Ankan, has been steady also.Zenziyan
There are different opinions about this one, but generally Tello, Bobo, Serdar Ozkan, Serdar Kurtulus, Cisse and Ricardinho can be thought of as our best players.10. Who do you think are the weakest players in your squad, if any, and why?Cihangir -
Defender Gökhan Zan; because despite his buff physique, he injures pretty quickly and he is very slow. There are too many to mention in the midfield so Ill pass in order to keep my morale up! Striker Nobre because he just cant score - his finishing is a train wreck.Habib -
Neither Bobo nor Higuaín have proved themselves. Strikers have to create goals and they have yet to deliver the goods.Zenziyan
Baki Mercimek.11. Have you any young up and coming stars who we would not know about anyone you think will be a star for the future?Cihangir -
Bobo, Serdar Özkan, Batuhan Karadeniz - especially Batuhan Karadeniz. He is referred to as a wonder kid and had been scouted by Man City if Im not mistaken. Hes just turned 17 and has already played 2 games and scored a game winning goal in the 95th minute against Gaziantep in the Turkish Super League.Habib -
The aforementioned Batuhan Karadeniz is the real deal. Also Koray Sanli, an eighteen-year-old defender, who came up through our youth system, looks promising.Zenziyan
Serdar Ozkan, Bobo and Batuhan.12. Which of the current Liverpool squad do you fear before our match? Would you like to see any of them playing for Beşiktaş?Cihangir -
Steven Gerard and I definitely dont want to see him against Beşiktaş!!Habib -
If Steven Gerrard finds something better to do than participate in the match it would not break my heart. He is one player that can single handedly change the outcome of a game. And of course Jamie Carragher is one of the best central defenders in the world.
There are at least a half a dozen players in your squad I would like to play for Beşiktaş. One I have not mentioned is Dirk Kuyt, a player who possesses the speed, vision and discipline; to not only excel in the Super League but to also lift up the play of the entire squad.Zenziyan -
We dont fear any of the LFC squad
but we wouldnt mind signing Torres, Gerrard, Pennant and Carragher
- how much would you ask for these four?!
Most of the fans would like to see Steven Gerrard in our team because of his personality and responsibility.13. What is your opinion of the current manager Sinan Engin and Head Coach Ertuğrul Sağlam? Do you think they are taking the club in the right direction?Cihangir -
Ertuğrul Sağlam, by his skills as a player and now as a coach and his high personality is a true Beşiktaş legend. Im 100% behind him but I hate Sinan Engin. And guys like him, especially our current unfortunate president, should leave their offices.Habib -
I think if they are given time they will put together a squad that will consistently compete for the league title and do well in European competition. The problem is the Turkish Super League is a tough place to be a manager. One failure and the press attack the manager and the coach relentlessly and stir up unrest with the supporters. Since 2000 we have had so many managers - Nevio Scala, Christoph Daum, Mircea Lucescu, Vicente del Bosque, Rıza Çalımbay, Mehmet Ekşi, Jean Amadou Tigana, Tayfur Havutçu and now Ertuğrul Sağlam. The Romanian, Lucescu, was my favourite. He won the title in 2003 and was the architect of the 2-0 victory against Chelsea the following year. He got players, we should not have been able to afford, to play for our side and for wages within our budget, yet within two years of winning the title he was toast. This revolving carousel of managers is one of the primary reasons that Turkish teams do not do better in European competition.Zenziyan
Some fans love Sinan Engin and some hate him, but Ertugrul Saglam is different. There is a big support for Ertugrul because he is an old Beşiktaş player and has a good character. As a head coach he is at the beginning of the road but we believe he will be a good one. He will improve his coaching abilities game by game. We will be patient and give him a long time to find success.14. Before our game on the 24th Oct you have a Big Four clash against Trabzonspor and we will have played a local derby against Everton is success in the league or Europe more important to the fans?Cihangir -
Of course Europe is more important than the league. It would have been the other way for some fanatic minority if it was Galatasaray or Fenerbahçe we were playing instead of Trabzon. Although they are not an arch rival of Beşiktaş, it is a derby nonetheless.Habib -
Ending the season higher in the table than both Gala and Fener is the most important indicator of success to Beşiktaş supporters. But if we were to win the Champions League I think the league table would lose some of its significance!Zenziyan
If we are saying that we are a big team then we must be successful in both, but to take a place in European competitions we must have a good standing in the league at the end of the season.15. With both teams needing all the points in order to qualify from the group, how do you think you will line up against us in the home game? What formation do you think the team will play? Cihangir -
Well, we play 4-1-2-1-2 and I dont think there will be any significant changes since there are not many good players in our squad unlike previous years.Habib -
We will not be satisfied with a draw and will be playing to win. We will most likely play a 4-3-3 with the same personnel as the Porto game.Zenziyan
We will probably play 4-4-1-1. The midfield will be crowded.16. For many Liverpool fans their last visit to Istanbul was in 2005 for the Champions League Final at the Atatürk Stadium. Have you any memories of Liverpool fans in the city from that evening?Cihangir -
Yeah, I was with my girlfriend that day at Taksim where most of the Reds who were going to watch the game at pubs were, and I saw a Red screaming GALATASARAAAYY!! in front of a little kid who had a Fenerbahçe jersey on. His dad was swearing in Turkish to this drunken Red - it was very funny! The game was a miracle needless to say. I hate the Italians and right after their 3rd goal I stopped watching the game, swearing to those Italians. At the end though I was very happy and fascinated as you can imagine.Habib -
That was a great night for Turkey, for football and of course for Liverpool. It was the most exciting final ever. I was not in Istanbul at the time, but friends told me that the Liverpool fans were delightful, even more so after the match.Zenziyan
They were drinking a lot of beer
The singing of Youll Never Walk Alone before taking the Champions Cup was really awesome.17. What will the atmosphere be like inside the İnönü stadium on the evening of the match?Cihangir -
Beşiktaş fans always fill up the stadium and I dont think theyll miss the chance to see the team play against Istanpoolers, including me. Habib -
Visualize an insane asylum where the patients are issued incendiary devices!Zenziyan
Just wait and see or make a search for Çarsi on You Tube, but for sure there will be an awesome atmosphere.
There have been a lot of preparations organized mostly focused on tribune shows (?) and new chants. 18. Can you recommend any bars near the stadium in which the Liverpool and Beşiktaş fans can meet before the game for some friendly chat/singing/banter?Cihangir -
Oh yeah, bars and pubs around İstiklal Street are perfect, especially bars on Nevizade Street and the Irish Pub at Balo Street - number 26. Çarşı hangs out in the Kazan Pub at Beşiktaş, if you guys want to meet them directly, you should go there. Habib -
The Inonu is a five minute walk from the famous Taksim Square. You will be able to meet many Beşiktaş supporters there. Zenziyan
We would recommend the Kazan pub in Beşiktaş. Beşiktaş fans gather together there before home games 19. Any other advice/tips for Reds travelling to and staying in Istanbul for the match?Cihangir -
I dont actually have any tips. Its cheap in Istanbul so relax
oh wait, do drink the Turkish Efes beer - youll thank me afterwards. Habib -
With apologies to Rudyard Kipling, Istanbul is the place where west and east meets. It is a wonderful city full of history, culture and entertainment. Dont just come to watch the game, stay and explore our city.Zenziyan
A bosphorus tour on a ship would be a good idea. Just be respectful to the people and dont do something stupid, especially when you are drunk. Other than that you wont have any problems.20. Finally, what do you think the score/scorers will be at the İnönü?Cihangir -
Its going to be very hard for us at İnönü and I really dont see a victory for us here. I know Liverpool are having a hard time too but this match could be their turning point. Otherwise, if it turns out to be our day, like the day we beat Barcelona, only then will we win in my opinion.Habib -
Liverpool win on paper, however, I think that we will be underestimated and find the net twice for a 2-1 victory by KaraKartal!Zenziyan
Lots of different opinions here; answers are win, lose, draw, forza Beşiktaş etc.
We organized a competition with a BJK kit as the prize. One member of our site who gives the right prediction of the final score and goal scorers will win the new kit. The most common answers in that competition are 1-1 and 2-1.
You can see all of the results by following this link:http://www.since1903.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6112© Andy Smith 2007
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